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"Forbidding to Abstain from Eating Meat" :) Hold onto your hats!!

Recently in talking with a friend, he pointed something out to me in the scriptures that I had never noticed before.  Maybe I'm the only one who hasn't noticed it before, but I doubt it.  :)   My mis-reading of this scripture seems pretty universal.  So sit down and hold onto your hats!!

You know how double negatives work:

I'm going to the store.
I'm not going to the store.
I'm not not going to the store. --> Now we're sort of back to going to the store.

Or like in math:  4 = 4;    -4 = -4;    -(-4) = 4

So turn to D&C 49: 18 and look at what it really says.  I've been missing the double negative all these years:

"And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;"

Notice -- who is not ordained of God?  The person who forbids.  Forbids what?  Forbids abstaining!  Not forbids eating meat, but rather forbids abstaining.  Wow!  Get it?  I've been reading this scripture all these years as though it was saying that the person is not ordained of God who forbids eating meat.  That is not what it says.  One more time, it says:

The person is not ordained of God who forbids abstaining from eating meat, i.e. the person is not ordained of God who forbids vegetarianism!  Neat, no?

Now this whole set of passages makes sense, which it formerly didn't.

D&C 49: 18-21
18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; 19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance. 20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.
21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

In other words, it's wonderful in God's eyes to abstain from eating meat, except when we need it in times of winter, cold, famine, excess hunger, and to save our lives.  Life is precious.  But the animals give themselves to us willingly if we need them to save our lives.  (See the JS translation of Gen. 9: 10-11 on pg 797 of your quadruple combination, and also D&C 89: 12-15).

I believe Heavenly Father is always careful about how He says things, and I believe that He knew exactly that saying this in the way He said it would be easily misinterpreted, thus protecting us from further condemning ourselves.

I love it! Hope you did too and that it hasn't freaked you out too much. If it has, just ignore this post. Comments, anyone?

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Wow! That was big! Thanks, Rand.

Back to the rural Chinese, and what the researchers from Cornell University discovered and wrote about in The China Study. They discovered that disease could be turned on and turned off by the amount of animal protein in the diet. They word it in the book in a more complicated way with percents of caloric intake, etc., but we can simplify what they have said to this thing: If we keep animal products down to about a tenth of our diet, we are mostly under the wire for turning on disease. Notice how this would fit with "eating meat sparingly". Is this not greater than heck?

Jim Simmons explained something to me about animal protein once that I have loved with all my heart. It is this: Our bodies need protein for building and repair, and for adults, that typically isn't that much -- something like only 6 grams a day (not the 150 grams that most of the Western world believes they need). When we eat more protein than our body needs, our body has to break it down. Protein comes from two sources: 1) plant protein, and 2) animal protein. When we eat too much plant protein (which is rare, by the way :), our body can break that down with no problem. But here is the amazing thing, when we eat too much animal protein and our body has to break this down, there is a nasty little by-product of this process called H2S04, namely sulphuric acid!! In other words, we can eat all the plant protein we want with no ill effect, but eating too much animal protein, i.e. more than our body needs, fills our tissues with sulphuric acid. Sulphuric acid is a serious acid, the kind that would eat your face off. Is it any wonder then, that eating more meat (and actually more animal products) than we need causes disease?

This brings up D&C 49: 21

"And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need."

I used to think that this meant that Heavenly Father was sitting up in Heaven with a big stick that He was going to hit us with if we killed animals for sport and basically were willing to waste the lives of other beings. Now this might be true too -- who can know! :) But, what I see now is that He doesn't need a big stick and can spend His time looking over us and blessing us, because there is a natural law that kicks in and we zap ourselves by wasting flesh. In other words, the "wo" is that we are filling our cells and tissues with sulphuric acid, which causes us to have all the degenerative diseases that America leads the world in having (by the way) when we don't eat meat sparingly, or in other words, when we eat more meat than our body needs -- when we waste flesh and have no need!

But there is not the health problem in eating meat or animal products when it's within the amount of protein that our body needs for building and repair! I love this!!

Look how wonderful and consistent Heavenly Father is once again: He give us animals for our use but expects us to be responsible with their lives and with the fact that they are living beings who have lives. If we actually need them, there is no problem. When we waste their lives because we take their lives for our use when we have no need, natural law kicks in and we pay for it in the end with our own lives. What this says to me is that we need to open our eyes about the seriousness of responsibility that we have in having stewardship over the animals on the earth.
thank you for responding. what i'm gettin at is that if the D&C is the Lord's exact words, then we don't need footnotes to change the wording. although i understand what you are saying that it doesn't....many people believe that it does. the footnotes can be useful by showing us other scriptues that help us understand what is being said. i'm not bashing the footnotes. and i say if, cuz i really don't know....i'm a convert, and this has not been explained to me. the Bible is not God's exact words, and neither is the BoM. But the D&C is....am i correct? or do we know?

i really want to know how to answer this partucular issue cuz the WoW spoke to me when Jesus said, it would please him. i do so many other things wrong, that if the cessation of eating meat would please him, then i'm all over that. that's easy. being a good parent, getting to church every sunday....those things are hard for me. but when i talk to other members and try to get answers, they ALL tell me to read D&C49. besides, i'm not saying don't eat it....clearly if you live in siberia and don't have fruits and veggies, then kill yourself an elk. if you live in the us, then you have access to a world of other foods and don't have to eat meat....you don't have need.
I'm not sure about this one. I think hot chocolate does, indeed, have addicting and stimulating effects. I never even cared a wit about chocolate especially dark chocolate until I read descriptions about eating it in "French Women Don't Get Fat." After trying dark chocolate and dark chocolate hot chocolate for the first time, I was hooked and craved it constantly. Additionally and interestingly, I gained quite a bit of weight after reading this book and eating my sparing chocolate. Green tea according to your writings, has a lower caffine content than chocolate. Maybe I'm a simpleton, but it must be even more addicting that chocolate. I've sworn off chocolate, hot drinks (except herbal teas in a medicinal situation), animal products, white flour, white sugar, processed foods, and fried foods as the addicting, stimulating foods that they are. I can't speak for the world at large, but I can tell you that this has made all the difference. Science has been wrong or misleading before (wine), possibly we aren't getting the whole story with green tea either.

Then we get to the DOs. I've embraced herbs of the field, fruits of the vine, and all wholesome grains for my benefit and the benenfit of the men in my home. Spending time every day except Sunday walking and working in sunshine, the good part of these good foods are increased. Health and weight are stabalizing.

The Doctrine and Covenants is the word of God and should be obeyed for a happy, healthy life. If that means not eating certain things, I won't eat them. If that includes eating certain things in times of famine, I will do so. If that includes getting outside to move this wonderful gift of a body, I'll include that, too. God created these bodies of ours and knows exactly how the should be cared for to make the most of them. I very much appriciate this discussion, however, we must be very careful not to let apostacy put its foot in the door of our well meaning conversations.
I love what you said and agree with you 100%. With the green tea thing, I trust Heavenly Father more than science and am not sure enough about what they are saying to go against our current interpretation of the Word of Wisdom on "hot drinks". It might turn out that green tea is as wonderful as science is believing, but it can't hurt to skip it and replace it with all the wholesome herbs and fruit that we have to choose from.
Hi Honey Dew. Thanks for what you've written. I'm not an expert and don't want to put myself out there as one, but I'll give you my opinion on what you've asked. First of all, revelation comes to people in many forms. Sometimes the Lord speaks to people (whether it's the prophet, your home teacher or husband giving you a priesthood blessing, or you yourself) in exact words. I've had a few times in my life where He actually said something to me in words that I heard and I remember exactly what He said verbatim. Most of the time, though, I believe revelation comes by the whispering of the Spirit with an idea or impression or even by pure intelligence that is clear to our hearts and minds, but when we try to put it into words, we have to do our best to try to word it accurately. We actually know from the history of the Church that much if not most of the D&C is the latter. And even when revelation comes in words, there are still mistakes at times in transcribing it. The D&C isn't error free. None of the scriptures are. But Joseph Smith himself said that "the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on the earth."

When it comes to the footnotes, I appreciate them for what they are, but they are for the most part, in my opinion, way down the line from revelation. Even still, we can know the truth of all things, any scripture, any comments all the way from general authorities to bloggers, or any footnotes -- by the power of the Holy Ghost in revelation to us. And we know for sure that Heavenly Father always wants us to get that and never take anyone else's words as true.

As for the Word of Wisdom, I feel like you in that if the Lord says it would be pleasing to Him for me to do something, but He's not commanding me to do it, I'd have to be nuts to not do it. And I admittedly was that kind of nuts most of my life. But when I really started to live the Word of Wisdom some years ago, scales started to fall off my eyes and for the first time in my life I could see how nuts I had been being --> "wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures" !

What I notice is that the Lord is consistently telling us that it is pleasing to Him for us to skip meat altogether unless we actually need it. We don't have to, though. When people keep pointing to D&C 49 as their justification for eating meat, they are doing it because it bothers them that someone else is not eating it. It's OK. It takes us all however long it takes us to be ready. I know this from my own personal experience. And some people will never give it up totally. Wonderfully, the Lord is OK with that too.

But once again, D&C 49 is not saying what they think it's saying, and neither is the footnote.
I certainly agree with this -- very wise. Let's do it!
thank you kisi. that answers a mystery for me.

the most interesting part to me are the words i warn you the because of the designs of men. cuz we know how they are treating the cows, and we know all the chemicals that they are giving to the cows and pigs and chickens. and we know what they are feeding them. it's disgusting and a bit scarry. who in their right mind would want to eat animals thusly treated? i'm surprised we as a nation are not all sick and dead by age 50.

another thing i discovered and shocked me was the jst translation of genesis....where we should only kill animals to save our lives.

it shocked me cuz no one talks about any of this from the pulpit, or at any of my religious classes at byu. why doesn't everyone know this?

anyway, thanks for letting me say things that have been on my mind but have learned to keep quiet about.
It took the church membership a long time to adhere to the "don't" part of the WoW. I think these things are not spoken of as plainly from the pulpit because: 1. The talks given in sacrament meeting reflect the beliefs of the individual. We base our talks on scripture and seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost, but like Kisi said, if a person is not ready to accept or understand something, then they will not speak of it in church. 2. As for words given from general authorities, again, as Kisi said, many/most are not ready for it (and we have many other serious topics that they are addressing). I think it took me about 10 years from my first, very small feeling that something was not right with the way I was eating to finally be consciously aware that the scripture says that it is pleasing to the Lord that we not eat animals except in time of need and to accept and choose that way. God loves us and leads us according to our own strength and will. He clears away the bad according to the strength of the good so as not to overcome or destroy us.

But the topic has been spoken of by general authorities (http://ldshealth.ning.com/page/prophetic-writings), yet people hear these statements through the filter of their own understandings and culture.
you know, you're right. i was always sick and prayed fervently for a solution cuz the docs were of no use. i was told flat out by the Spirit to stop drinking milk. and i rejected that messeage even though it was plain and straight up. i couldn't wrap my mind around it cuz we needed milk for calcium....everyone knows that. finally i was convinced to at least try it and see. voila! no more meds. asthma gone. no more headaches or sore throats or ear infections or bouts with bronchitis. but see, the thing is, i was told and ignored it cuz like you say, i wasn't ready for the info. i couldn't believe it. the info went contrary to everything else i had been taught. i felt and still do feel stupid. the answer was/is as simple as looking at a staff, eh?

i remember reading what the prophet said about eating foods in their natural and whole state and asking what whole foods were. it took me a while to understand food is not supposed to come out of a box or bag and then slipped into the microwave. again, the feeling of stupidity overcomes me and shame too. for not having the faith to just simply follow what i'd been given.
I'm going to send this link to a friend who I love having these kinds of discussions with. Thanks for contributing everyone!
((HUGS)) I understand feeling stupid or ashamed, but we can give that up and rejoice that the Lord is patient with us. True, we are weak, but we are learning and growing, no matter how slowly.
Thanks you guys. It is wonderful and refreshing to be able to talk about all this stuff with all of you and gain your insights and hear of your experiences. I have to admit (unfortunately) that I noticed all my life that the scriptures told us to eat meat sparingly or not at all, BUT I still didn't do it! I was just plain too dysfunctional to accomplish it or to have any idea how. Heavenly Father in his infinite grace, loving kindness, and mercy finally "lined up the sun, the moon, and dog star" (whatever that means -- it's a cute phrase that we hear, no?) to help me have a window where I could change how I ate, and from that minute on, I had the power and help from Him to continue. When my eyes opened, I was shocked out of my mind to see how I used to think and how blind I was. I never want to throw rocks at other people who are still blinded by the craftiness of men and also blinded by their own addictions, as I was. I remember REALLY WELL how it felt to be there. I hope I never forget. And I know that when my eyes are opened further as I progress further, I'll be shocked again at how little I'm seeing even still!

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